Talk:Hitler and the Church

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Archives[edit]

Wheeler-Bennett[edit]

From Hindenburg the Wooden Titan by ,then,later Sir John W. Wheeler-Bennett Macmillan 1936 p 448:Letter to Centre Party Leaders(substitue for failed Hitler constitutional Guarante of 23 March, this was several days later( and Kaas in Rome)

"I am glad to be able to confirm that the Chancellor has given me assurance that, even without being formally obliged by the Constituion, he will not use the power conferred on him by the Enabling Act without first having consulted me. In this connection I shall always endeavour to secure our intimate co-operation and to fulfil my oath "to do justice to all men". W-B continues:

"Here was the one remaining check upon Hitler's power, a gentleman's agreement to consult the President, and it may be asked why did Hindenburg not more energetically defend his oath? The answer is obvious. A weary Old Gentleman of eighty-six, of rigid mind and slow reasoning, anxious to avoid responsibility and surrounded by a pack of watch-dogs, is no match for a virile young politician of forty-four, free as the air and with no inhibiting political scruples . The agreement has the appearance of the most sardonic hypocrisy." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enabling_Act/Archive1 EffK

Arthur Rosenberg, and Nuremberg Tribunal[edit]

Rosenberg is the ex-berlin history prof, whose History of the German Republic is the foundation for further history . this here relates to Fire decree and previous legislating, rather rule by decree, and AR qulaification as to preceding nature of Weimar before Enabling Actas a series of presidential dictaatorships. Also to illegality of Reichstag deputy arrest, extent of admissions etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enabling_Act/Archive1[[1]]EffK

Von Papen, Frick and Goering testimony at Nuremberg re legality[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Enabling_Act/Archive2[[2]] EffK

Reichskonkordat Secret Annexe[edit]

The secret annexe is vastly important to the Doctrine or Principle of Double Effect , as it shows the contumate papal thought prefiguring illegal war .What is also disputed is the relevance to Ludwig Kaas and to Pius XII and to Hitler's Pope . It was removed by an anon just prior to Str's first appearance upon Pius XII. He says that's not him . OK , however I have recollection of him writing a goodly series of resons why it was excludable . Thus far I cannot pinpoint that conversation. This annexe(english spelling) was composed and one should report this, by Kaas. Kaas after returning from Rome 31 March had his private meeting with Hitler (aslo of dispute over removal) on 2 April . Papen left secretly for Rome , meeting Kaas surreptitiously (from German Press) on 8 th April, they together arrived Rome 9 th. Kaas had first audience over minister Papen of their two audiences of 9th . Str states and fights throughout to keep to Kenney's Tollet book which states that the quid pro quo began , so Kenney says, on Hitlers sending Papen . This was so surreptitiously undertaken , and this is well known to even Str , reported via Guenter Lewy and the Timelines, as Hitler officially opening negotiations with the Holy See on 9th April . There you have it, Shirer and the big guns speak of the quid pro quo in general , with no limitation as to a start on 9 th April , but rather with exactitude as to the Hitler volte face of 23 March in his pro-catholic and christian speech. The other end of the quid is the little speech of welcome by Pius XI on 10 the April . EffK

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reichskonkordat/Archive1[[3]] EffK

Controversy Vector (into contemporary German politics)[edit]

  • The interweaving of denial and avoidant reaction parallel but outside of the RKKt controversy is shown here http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/apr2002/stie-a04.shtml :[[4]] , in relation to such as Merkel or Schroder , and modern Germany as a whole . I insert this to assist editors in their view of the relative importance of the controversies surrounding the implementation of the Nazi coup'd'etat of 30 Jan 1933 by 23 mar 1933 . The controversies do not start on WP, nor end on WP .EffK

At Nuremburg , von Papen closed down the Prosecution's allegation that the RKKt was a maneuver intended to deceive by countering that perhaps I may in this connection point to the fact that the Gentlemen with whom I signed the Concordat were secretary of State Pacelli , the present Pope, who had known Germany personally for 13 years , and Monsignor Kaas , who for years had been the Chairman of the Centre Party , and that if these two men were willing to conclude a Concordat , then one can surely not maintain that there was a maneuver intended to deceive . The link shows however that there has been no close to this day , and that little has changed since Weimar . The link also explains some of the activity upon these pages , and provided extra motive . I reserve it as necessary for modern minds , in the absence of glasnost for the RKKt Archives , to enable interior arbitration . One doubts whether WP , even with its prominence, will stimulate this glasnost , so conclusions will remain un-interrupted by further testimony .The opening of the Archive might conceivably assist the denial , but the closure cannot . Meanwhile it is clear that the WP is being massaged , rather ably ! The subject of this link may be worthy of its own article , and certainly a wider notice . Users will soon find that even the german 'social democrats' abdicated their honour to Hitler, so there is no socialist advantage , in fact, to the link . EffK 14:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Explosive Papen reference to RCC/NSDAP synthesis, in 1936[edit]

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reichskonkordat/Archive2#Catholic_Church_and_Nazism_.28Nuremburg_Trials_extract.29 [[5]], concerns Bishop Alois Hudal and more importamtly , and crucial to this Article, the question as to who still in high authority in the Vatican (in Papen's testimony at Nuremberg), still sought synthesis with the healthy aspects of Nazism EffK P's links to vatican :"But quite apart from these deliberations the attitude of the defendant towards religious matters does not admit of the slightest doubt about the sincerity of his intentions. In the hearing of the evidence, it was set forth that not only his closest personal advisers in Church affairs, but also the highest dignitaries of the Church who were in closest personal as well as professional contact with the defendant in these matters, emphasized that his attitude as a Catholic was absolutely irreproachable at all times." from http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-19/tgmwc-19-183-11.shtml,[[ http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-19/tgmwc-19-183-11.shtml]] EffK

Dilectissima Nobis Encyclical[edit]

see relevance via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reichskonkordat/Archive2#Catholic_Church_and_Nazism_.28Nuremburg_Trials_extract.29 [[6]] . Dispute concerns the abbreviation as used by humanitas/megamex. Appears finally at Pius XII. Is politically highly relevant. When I find the remaining sourced passages from Lambert , showing the effect immediate upon the Fulda conference and the quid pro quo , you will see there's only one QpQ, which is thwe whole of which the hierarchy volte face is part . EffK 2 Feb 2006

Kaas words to zentrums re vote[edit]

Str1977:Now, as promised, here is the German text of Kaas reference to soul.

Meeting of the Centre party's Reichstags-fraction on 23 March, 1933, 11.15. (from Die Protokolle der Reichstagsfraktion und des Fraktionsvorstands der Deutschen Zentrumspartei 1926-1933 (edited by Rudolf Morsey), in: Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Zeitgeschichte Reihe A: Quellen, Band 9), Mainz 1969, page 630.) (also in: Rudolf Morsey (ed.): Das "llErmächtigunsgesetz]]" vom 24. März 1933, Göttingen 1968, page 26-27.) EffK

"... Im Anschluß weißt Dr. Kaas auf die schwierige Stellung der Fraktion im gegenwärtigen Augenblick hin. Es gelte einerseits unsere Seele zu wahren, andererseits ergäben sich aus der Ablehnung des Ermächtigungsgesetz unangenehme Folgen für die Fraktion und die Partei. Es bliebe nur übrig, uns gegen das Schlimmste zu sichern. Käme die Zweidrittel-Majorität nicht zustande, so werde die Durchsetzung der Pläne der Reichsregierung auf anderem Wege erfolgen. Der Reichspräsident habe sich mit dem Ermächtigungsgesetz abgefunden. Auch von den Deutschnationalen her sei kein Versuch einer Entlastung der Situation. Dr. Kaas lehnte es ab, von sich aus einen Vorschlag zu machen, wie man sich entscheiden solle. ..." For the benefit of non-German speaker, I have translated this as closely as possible (so please excuse the clumsiness of the following text: After this, Dr. Kaas pointed out the precarious situation of the fraction in the current moment. It was important on one hand to preserve our soul and on the other hand a rejection of the Enabling Act would result in unpleasant consequences for fraction and party. What was left was only to safeguard us against the worst. If the 2/3-majority were not reached, the implementation of the government's plan would occur by another way. The President has accept (or resigned to) the Enabling act. From the DNVP too no attempt of allieviating the situation is to be expected. Dr. Kaas refused to himself make a proposal how to decide. You can read now for yourself what Kaas said (it's in the reported speech of protocol).Str1977 16:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC) from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ludwig_Kaas[[7]] EffK

Wikipedia Jimbo Wales' Policy re 'explanation[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ludwig_Kaas#Open_Short_Summary,[[8]]

'Explanation which encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold those beliefs and practices , but on account of how such beliefs and practices came into place' .

Inmanuel Kant[edit]

EffK paraphrases Inmanuel Kant :I remind you that good action must not only conform to moral law , but be done for the sake of moral law . That good will is good not by what it performs but simply by virtue of the volition , and that the function of reason is to produce a will good in itself , for reason recognises the establishment of a good will as its highest practical destination . Robert McClenon I urge you to reconsider your position regarding the necessity for this article to relate not to Cornwell , but to the history . Necessarily , the failure of good action and good will must be reported and the legalities enumerated . I am angered by the continuous absence of good will and the suffocation of reason . Famekeeper 00:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC) EffK 13:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Mussolini[edit]

"in April, 1938, Benito Mussolini privately suggested that the Vatican consider excommunicating Adolf Hitler. It is not clear if the Church ever seriously considered excommunicating Hitler. [1]"

A link and paragraph mostly about what Mussolini did and why is IMHO not on-topic in an article called Hitler and the Church. Str1977 (smile back) 19:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It was a talk with Church officials, regarding Hitler - it is not offtopic. Sigitas 19:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Merger[edit]

This page and the Nazism and religion page deal with essentially the same subject, with much overlap, and neither is overly long. Peregrine981 05:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)