Talk:Women as imams

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Title[edit]

Should the heading for this page not be "Women Imams" instead of "Woman imam".

Maybe. Does anyone have a cite for what Tabari actually said? Looking online, I see some people claiming he allowed women to lead men in prayers in general, and others claiming he only allowed this for their households. - Mustafaa 01:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Title: Hmmm. Female Imamath is what I'd really want to put there, but that's not fair to a global audience. Maybe Female Imams? I guess I am agreeing with you on the plural.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:27, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I dunno... "Female imams" sounds somehow off to me, but I'd be fine with "women imams". - Mustafaa 03:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about "Women as Imams"?iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:37, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, "Women as Imams" would work. - Mustafaa 18:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it is really great that the title has changed because "Woman Imam" did not seem encompassing and the article was discussing more than one person. I also do not like the connotation of "female" which has been heavily used throughout the article so it is seems good to have it as "Women as Imams" because there is a new rise and trend of women as imams. Having the title as "Women as Imams" ultimately shows that they are breaking some form of barriers that have been placed. Lakinnawonu (talk) 04:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Featured article...pictures?[edit]

I'd like to submit this to be a W:Featured Article and then Featured Article of the Day. But it must have a graphic to go with it. Any ideas? I will ask the organizers of the NY event...Oh, and I need to add the {{Islam}} template...iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:42, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

This probably needs standard footnote references at the bottom to be fairly considered for FAC. How many of the sites listed under external links are references? Also, the folks at FAC unfortunately tend to frown on anything "current". I think the historical discussion could be extended more with various historical opinions, as well as the contemprary debate of ideas, rather than just specific news items of women serving as imams in the last ten years. But this article is definitely developing well, and is already quite a good resource.--Pharos 04:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's about the best collection on the topic that I've seen anywhere. I see several others hunting down information, too. The fact is, there really has been no one place to go for all this information. I understand the aversion to a list of newsy items, but we have covered the theology and history as well. And I have added a "See also" section.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:39, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's ready yet. Its coverage of recent events seems extensive, but there must be more information available on the history of woman-only mosques; and, though I don't have the necessary knowledge, I'd rather like to see more detail on Shia positions. - Mustafaa 18:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What did Tabari say?[edit]

In the comments on this article, I see some people claiming that he only said that women could be imam for tarawih (like the Hanbalis) and one adding that, actually, Tabari doesn't say so in his surviving works; rather, Ibn Jarir quoted him as saying so in a work that does not survive, Ikhtilaf al-Fuqaha, and Ibn Arabi then quoted this work. Ibn Arabi's support seems not to be disputed, but for Tabari I'd really like to see some citations. - Mustafaa 02:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ah! I just found Ali Gum'a's fatwa: http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=122881 . It seems al-Arabiya's phrasing was misleading. - Mustafaa 02:42, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Now several sources, including this, agree that Tabari, at least, only allowed it for tarawih. - Mustafaa 03:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Zaid Shakir article[edit]

Anyone know a place to link to for the recent article by Zaid Shakir?iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 18:57, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

Found it and added.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:42, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

External links[edit]

I am moving general treatises to bottom; adding links to bio articles. Please help fix the links and otherwise make this section more useful. It is starting to become one of the best places to go on the Internet to go for a list of opinions from all sides of the discussion. Or I am hoping it will.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:42, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Gay Muslim[edit]

Officially, there is no such thing as "Gay Muslim". I am a muslim and to my knowledge, no mazhabs of Islam, whether Sunni or Shi'ite recognize homosexuality among muslims. Having said that, there are of course gays among muslims but they are considered to be in a state of grave sin until they repent. Therefore, I'm modifying the relevant sections to include this view. I don't have the appropiate Quranic quotations to support this and in any case I think such quotation would get too off topic and belong in the Homosexuality article. However, feel free to modify it if you think its POV.

I reverted your edits because it's not really relevant to this article... and, we are not here to tell people what is Islam... they identify themselves as gay and Muslim... an encyclopedia needn't point out that they are called kafirs by some Muslims. gren 05:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Request for information[edit]

Can a few lines be put on Women as theological figures which is meant to be a general overview of the subject.

Jackiespeel 10:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


what about women giving the Friday sermon but not leading the prayer? They have been more common and I think something about that should be included.

Women as theological figures is something that should definitely be in this article. I think it would also be interesting to have verses on what defines an imam historically and religiously and what role do women play in the Quran. Furthermore, I think using that basis would be interesting to see how these coincide or go against one another. This could probably help better one's understanding of women as theological figures. Lakinnawonu (talk) 04:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

There has also been more information about women giving the Friday sermon but not leading the prayer as well. Many of the women mentioned here in this wikipedia article have given the Friday sermon especially in the United States and the United Kingdom. Lakinnawonu (talk) 04:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

Could someone clarify if this is NPOV; "Traditional scholars caution against Yusuf Qaradawi's Fiqh (jurisprudence) methodology, and especially his excessive leniency to the point of laxity. He does not limit himself to the relied upon positions of the four Sunni schools of fiqh, and is notorious among scholars for his many aberrant positions. They respect him as a scholar; they are cautious and caution others about those positions of his that depart from the mainstream."

If it isn't then I recommend changing the article.84.9.160.164

Vast Minority?[edit]

The term "a vast minority" strikes me as oxymoronic. Does it mean "a large minority" - say 40% of more or does it mean "a very small minority" say 1% or less? I suspect the latter but I would not presume to change the article because it is a subject about which I know virtually nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Majurawombat (talkcontribs) 23:39, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Ghazala al-Haruriyya[edit]

Notice this:

In the early years of Islam, one sect of Kharijites founded by Habib ibn-Yazīd al-Harūrī held that it was permissible to entrust the imamate to a woman if she were able to carry out the required duties. The founder's wife, Ghazāla al-Harūriyya, even commanded troops, following the example of Abu Sufyan's daughter Juwayriyya at the battle of Yarmuk.

Totally irrelevant to the subject. the imama that Habib the Khariji meant was not leading in prayer, rather it meant leading in governance, battle and law. There is no historical evidence that states that Ghazala ever lead a prayer. Her leading an army is irrelevant because this is another subject altogether.

Also, the above quote implies that not only Ghazala lead prayer, but also Juwayriyya lead the prayer at the battle of Yarmuk - the last is actually absurd. --Maha Odeh 12:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Women as muftis and deputy muftis[edit]

Perhaps there should be a mention of the three women muftis appointed in Hyderabad in September 2003 [1], and the 450 women deputy muftis (called vaizes) appointed in Turkey [2] [3], starting in 2004/2005 [4]. These positions are I think usually considered superior to that of imam (though I guess they don't present the same theological issues).--Pharos (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

There now exists List of female Muslim scholars for these sorts of things. Imams and muftis are very different things, an imam leads congregations and such while a scholar concerns themselves with nitty-gritty theology. I am aware that the above comment is ancient but it's worth pointing out for others. FAISSALOO(talk) 21:27, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Citations[edit]

Does anyone know where the material came from that discusses mixed gender congregations in South Africa. I can't seem to find a source to reference this with?

(Ktewhitney (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC))

Unanimous Consensus?[edit]

The sentence stating that A unanimous consensus for the entire Ummah (Muslim community) in the east and west [is] that women can not lead the Friday prayer nor can they deliver the [sermon] seems to directly contradict the rest of the article. How unanimous can the consensus be, when there are in fact female Muslims leading Friday prayers? (Also, what's up with the words in brackets? Usually the brackets are used to indicate interpolations or emendations in quoted text, but this sentence is unsourced and not in quotation marks. What gives?) 65.213.77.129 (talk) 15:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Removed section[edit]

I've removed the section copied below because it was unsourced for over four years. It can be put back into the article when reliable sources have been found to cite the section, as per Wikipedia's verification policy. Mattg82 (talk) 14:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

===South Africa=== One of the earliest reported cases of a woman imam in the West occurred in 1995 in Johannesburg, South Africa. For about two years, a congregation met every Friday for the Jum'ah prayer and every night in Ramadan for the special tarāwīh prayer in a building owned by the Muslim Youth Movement of South Africa (MYM). The khutbah for the Jumu'ah was delivered by either a male or female khatib and the imams for the prayer also included men and women. One of the prime movers behind this congregation was well-known South African Muslim women's rights activist Shamima Shaikh (1960–1998).

A year earlier, Amina Wadud (see below) became the first woman in South Africa to deliver the jum'ah khutbah, at the Claremont Main Road Mosque in Cape Town. Farid Esack discusses this event in his 1997 book Qur'an, Liberation, and Pluralism. Following that event, both the Claremont Main Road Mosque and Masjidul Islam, in Johannesburg, often have had women speakers for Jum'ah.

In January 1998, as per her wishes, one of the four funeral prayers for Ms. Shaikh was led by a woman friend.

In 2003, a new venue for Eid prayer was established in Durban by a group of individuals and was later taken on by an organisation called Taking Islam to the People (TIP). The venue is designed to allow entire families to attend the Eid prayer together in a pleasant and comfortable atmosphere. Located at Durban's North Beach, the Eid prayer is an open-air event performed against the backdrop of the Indian Ocean. Each event includes two khutbahs, one each by a male and a female.

To date eleven women have offered khutbah's at this venue. Amongst them are Dr. Lubna Nadvi, Zaytun Suleyman, Fatima Seedat, Fatima Hendricks, Dr Mariam Seedat and Hajra Hussein.

– – – –

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